Women, Men & the “Gray Divorce”: How to Reconnect When Everything Is Changing with Terry Real

Dr. Mindy (00:02.005) Well, let me start off Dr. Terry Real by telling you that I'm not only a super fan, I'm also a beneficiary of your work. So I just want to start off and say thank you for being here with me. I'm really excited about this conversation. Terry Real (00:12.078) Aww. Terry Real (00:19.006) thank you. And thank you for the wonderful work you're doing with this broadcast and now YouTube channel. You know, may I call you Mindy? Yeah, please call me. OK, so you can't throw that out without me following up. What did you personally, what did you get out of it or what change for you may I ask? Dr. Mindy (00:22.859) Thank you. Dr. Mindy (00:27.38) Of course, yeah, let's do that. Dr. Mindy (00:39.743) Yeah, so you know, it's interesting. large part of my new book, Age Like a Girl, is really about a 10-year research project that I did to understand what happens to the female brain as a woman moves through menopause. And there's a rewiring that happens that makes women more independent, makes women less... or less inclined, I should say, to her people pleasing ways. And I not only was researching that, but I was experiencing that myself. And so I landed upon your book called Us. A friend had recommended the book as I was discovering that my behaviors were changing. And what I really loved about your book was it felt like it was the first time I had read a relationship book. that had both the unique qualities of a man and the unique qualities of a woman. And how do we take our differences and bring them together to benefit a relationship specifically, in my case, a 30 year marriage. So like, I felt like you were going to bat for men, you were supporting men. And I think we're in a time where that is really necessary, not only for the culture, but it's really necessary for menopausal women. Terry Real (02:08.654) Yeah, absolutely. Manipulas of women and post-manipulas of women who are pulling the plug on their marriages in record number. So, yes, help is needed here. Dr. Mindy (02:18.23) That's right, that's right, yeah. Yeah, thank you. So when I started this book, there were two statistics that launched this 10-year study or a research project that now is called Age Like a Girl. And the first one was the most common time for a woman to commit suicide is the decade between 45 and 55. And that 70 % of divorces after 40 are initiated by women. And so that started a long research of what's happening to the female brain. Fast forward to this moment, as I'm teaching the principles of this book, the most common question I'm getting right now from women is how do I explain this to my husband? And right now I really feel like we have a lot of attention on what we're calling the gray divorce. Terry Real (02:48.12) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (03:18.056) And it's almost like divorce has become the new women's liberation moment. And when I wrote this book, me and my agent and my publisher and the whole team that worked with me on the book, I said, I don't want this to be a divorce book. I want this to be a book on how do marriages navigate this moment. So my number one question to you is what does a long-term marriage need Terry Real (03:23.885) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (03:47.166) when to bring into the conversation when a woman starts to go through the menopause process. Terry Real (03:55.587) Wow, okay, so let me fade back a little. It is women, look, I mean, let me really fade back. The great story, one of the great stories of the 20th century is the changing roles of women. Women enter the workforce, women, feminism, 50 years of feminism, the culture shifted, women's empowerment is one of the great stories of our century. Dr. Mindy (04:00.119) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (04:06.537) Of course. Dr. Mindy (04:12.833) Mm. Dr. Mindy (04:25.175) Hmm. Terry Real (04:25.742) Women have radically changed. Men, not so much. And therein lies the rub. It is women who are spearheading a move toward redefining what marriage looks like. You know, my grandparents, a companionable marriage, Dr. Mindy (04:42.199) Hmm. Terry Real (04:50.346) was the norm. Intimacy, what are you talking about? If my mom went to her mom and said, my husband's great, he doesn't beat me or drink too much or cheat on me, but we haven't had sex in 20 years or we don't talk to each other or he's demeaning in public or periodically he has temper tantrums, I don't like him very much. She would have been told, go home to your good man. Dr. Mindy (05:17.92) Yeah, that's right. Terry Real (05:19.436) But nowadays it is just these, what I call quality of relationship issues that are breaking up marriages. We have never wanted more from our marriages historically than we do now. We want long walks on the beach. You know the drill. We want hard to hard talks. We want great sex in our 60s and 70s. We want to be lifelong lovers. But we are trying to be lifelong. Dr. Mindy (05:35.191) Hmm. Terry Real (05:49.323) long lovers within a culture, our Western culture, which is individualistic, not relational, and which is patriarchal, not equal, and which does not give our sons and daughters and non-binary kids the basic skills of how to get this done. We know more about how to run a dishwasher than how to have a relationship. don't, we have, I say, Dr. Mindy (05:53.463) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (05:58.008) Mmm. Dr. Mindy (06:15.005) Mmm, well said. Terry Real (06:18.286) We have a filet mignon ambition, a lifelong lover relationship, and hamburger skills. We just don't know how to do it. Kids aren't taught how to fight fair, how to repair, how to speak up for yourself with love. None of this is taught. So, and by the way, I would love to have relationship skills taught in elementary school and junior high and high. I mean, hello. Dr. Mindy (06:27.403) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (06:40.489) You're so important. Yes. Yeah. Terry Real (06:45.146) I mean, we're now wising up and talking about physical health, even sexual health. Well, let's talk about how to handle yourself in a relationship. Look, research tells us that good relationship is as important to our health. as not being in a bad relationship or in no relationships. I'm not talking about you don't necessarily need a man, but you're still in a relationship. Not being in an intimate, connected relationship is as bad for us as smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day. This is black and white research. Dr. Mindy (07:02.135) Mmm. Dr. Mindy (07:20.363) Yeah. Yeah. Terry Real (07:22.222) Who of your people listening right now say, oh, I'm going to go out and smoke a pack and a of a... But we do say, I'm not going to learn a big... I'm not going to put an hour into learning how to fight fair or stand up for myself in a way that's going to work. It should be spontaneous. So here's what's happened. When I say we now want an intimate marriage or a long term relationship, well... Dr. Mindy (07:38.582) Yeah. Terry Real (07:51.023) Who's that we? That we is women. And what's happening is across the West in heterosexual relationships, women are insisting on levels of emotional intimacy from their men that as a patriarchal culture, we don't raise boys and men to give. In fact, we raise them to not give it. Dr. Mindy (07:52.799) Hmm. Hmm. Dr. Mindy (08:15.774) Mm, so well said. Dr. Mindy (08:20.343) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (08:20.462) You know, one of the things I say, look, you want to know about men, this is one sentence everybody can take home. The essence of traditional masculinity under patriarchy is invulnerability. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are. Dr. Mindy (08:35.991) Yeah, don't be weak. Terry Real (08:39.96) Think about boys heroes, Wolverine, Superman, Terminator, no flesh on them. Literally no soft flesh on these guys. They're made of steel, literally. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are, the more vulnerable you are, the more girly you are, and girly is not a good thing. Okay, well here's the problem, ready? As good old Brene Brown has taught the world, we humans connect through our vulnerabilities. Dr. Mindy (08:43.031) Mm. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (08:57.911) So true. Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (09:08.755) Yes, so true. Yes. Terry Real (09:10.606) That's how we connect. you know, guys, if you're watching me, I don't know about you, but my wife, Terri, I want to hear about what you're feeling vulnerable about in your life. You do? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're both there. We're both. We're both. You're not going to get very far. You're both. We're both there. But I don't want to talk about what I'm vulnerable about. I'll talk about what you're vulnerable about. Dr. Mindy (09:24.919) Does she say that? Amazing. I'm gonna try that on. okay. Dr. Mindy (09:37.941) Hmm. Hmm. Terry Real (09:39.472) I don't like vulnerability, I'm a guy. what we're, okay, so somebody described my work with men as women have had a revolution and now men have to deal with it. Women are asking for emotional intimacy from men. What do we learn as boys? Be independent, be strong, be logical, don't be too emotional, don't cry, don't be vulnerable. Dr. Mindy (09:42.913) Okay. Terry Real (10:08.303) Or I deal with very tough guys and I deal with marriages on the brink of divorce. That's my beat. I deal with marriages that nobody's been able to help. Here's what I say to these guys. What you learned as a boy, whether you wanted to or not, it landed on you with or without your consent. What you learned as a boy about what makes a good man, being strong, logical, independent. By today's standards, we'll make guarantee that you're a lousy husband. Think about that. What got imposed upon you as a boy? Because boys are not born like this. The research, boys love their mommies, little boys love their mommies. It's a great thing. The research tells us, anything, little boys are more emotional than little girls. More sensitive, and moms know that about their little sons. Until... Dr. Mindy (10:45.269) Yep. Yep. Dr. Mindy (10:53.405) Mm-hmm. I have a boy. I remember that. Yep. Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. Dr. Mindy (11:07.337) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yep. Terry Real (11:13.837) the code of masculinity lands on them. Now women, you spoke about women being less willing to be the accommodating peacemakers that women are groomed to be under patriarchy when they hit menopause. It's like, gave it the office, I'm done. I wanna be my own person now. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (11:34.849) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (11:38.52) The wound to women, as Carol Gilligan wrote back in the 80s and a whole generation of women after her, is the loss of voice. They stop telling the truth. They over accommodate and resent it. That's the traditional role. That lands on girls at 10, 11, 12, which is when many psychiatric symptoms show up. Bulimia, anorexia, depression, anxiety. Why then? Dr. Mindy (11:54.647) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (12:03.864) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (12:06.819) because they fall prey to what Carol famously called the tyranny of the nice and kind. Now Carol said her research broke open the day a woman looked at her, she asked her opinion, and the woman said to her, now Carol, do you want to hear what I think or do you want to hear what I really think? And it's just. Dr. Mindy (12:14.648) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (12:27.644) wow. By the way, I have a whole chapter on Carol Gilligan's work in my new book. But what's interesting about what you're saying is I only saw it from the female lens, which is... Terry Real (12:33.763) You should. Dr. Mindy (12:40.868) And I added in my understanding of hormones and its effect on the brain that when estrogen comes in, it starts to activate the corpus callosum that is connecting the right and left hemispheres. And all of a sudden a woman is bringing both hemispheres to every decision, which means she's bringing the emotional along with the logical. And you combine that with Carol Gilligan's work, which is the cultures taught her that she's good if she pleases everybody. So I never heard the boy side of it. I only thought of the girl side of it. So that's really fascinating. Terry Real (13:10.521) Right. Terry Real (13:15.169) Okay, well, let me tell you the boy side and then let me tell you how they go together. Because Carol and I have worked a lot together over decades. Okay, here's the boy side. Dr. Mindy (13:22.722) Amazing. Terry Real (13:29.999) Under patriarchy, the wounded girls traditionally, now feminism has shifted that and we'll talk about that, but traditionally, the wounded girls is over accommodation and resentment that shows up 10, 11, as they're initiated in the womanhood, this is what they're initiated into. Be kind, be accommodating, don't rock the boat. And resent the hell out of it. Get depressed, get symptoms, get cancer and die, but don't rock the boat. Dr. Mindy (13:54.626) Right. Terry Real (13:59.608) Okay, boys. So the wound of girls is disempowerment, a loss of voice. And the healing move is re-empowerment, telling the truth, standing up for yourself. The wound of boys is disconnection. The way we quote unquote turn boys into men under patriarchy, we teach them to disconnect from their vulnerabilities, from their feelings, literally from their emotions, from others. Dr. Mindy (13:59.651) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (14:05.144) Mm. Dr. Mindy (14:14.968) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (14:27.832) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (14:29.391) And what I wrote back in the 90s on my book on I wrote a whole book on man called I don't want to talk about it the cost of a disconnected boy is a disconnected man and the healing of the healing for a woman is re-empowerment the healing for a man is reconnection Dr. Mindy (14:37.08) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (14:42.669) Yeah. Terry Real (14:50.959) And this is what I do. Reconnect them to your feelings. Reconnect them to their heart. Reconnect them to the people that they love. There was just an article in the New York Times. I don't know when you're going to air this, but it ran today about fathers in films, and I'm quoted in it. And it's all about these men struggling to find connection, often with their children. Dr. Mindy (15:19.181) Yeah. Terry Real (15:19.651) when they've been pulled out of connection. Patriarchy pulls man out of connection. So let me just say, so when we're asking men to open up, share their feelings, be vulnerable, all of which I support, we're literally asking them to reconfigure what it means to be a man to begin with. We are asking for nothing less. Dr. Mindy (15:23.788) Yeah, it's so true. Terry Real (15:49.147) than for these men to be pioneers moving beyond patriarchy. And good for us. One of things I say is that moving men, women, non-binary folks into true intimacy is synonymous with moving beyond patriarchy. We have to reconfigure our traditional gender roles in order to be intimate with each other because those roles don't allow intimacy. Dr. Mindy (15:51.448) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (15:56.738) seems Dr. Mindy (16:13.974) Yeah, yeah. One thing that's interesting about that is in my research, I discovered that estrogen stimulates oxytocin. So when estrogen goes away, oxytocin becomes what I call muted for a woman. Like her oxytocin system doesn't work the same. And I will tell you as a 56 year old woman that I have found myself searching for deeper connection with everybody because that's where I get an oxytocin buzz. So, but if I listen to your words, I'm thinking about my own marriage and I'm like, how do you get then a man who's been trained by the patriarch to disconnect and you're like, hey, if this thing's gonna continue forward, you're gonna need to connect deeper with me. How does that work when he's never done that before? Terry Real (17:05.859) Yeah. Well, first, why don't you start off with some acknowledgement and compassion. You know what? I want to acknowledge that what I'm asking you to do is something not only did you never learn to do, but you were actively discouraged from doing. This goes against all the rules, my dear darling husband, and I know it does. And what an amazing... Dr. Mindy (17:15.416) Yes. Dr. Mindy (17:22.732) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (17:26.24) Yeah, good point. Yeah. Yeah. Terry Real (17:35.096) courageous act on your part to open up your heart and have this old dog learn some new tricks. Thank you for doing this for me. I mean, who sounds like that? Listen, here's not... No, here's number one. Dr. Mindy (17:43.978) Yep. Yeah. Or as good as say, yeah. Not very many people I know. Terry Real (17:56.271) Men are criticism phobic. Men, I have to teach almost every man I work with healthy self-esteem, which comes from the inside out. It doesn't get earned. You have worth because you're here and you're breathing. This is medical ethics. This is democracy. One man, one vote. You have worth because you're here. Men don't believe that. Men believe that my worth is predicated on my performance. Dr. Mindy (17:59.097) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (18:04.312) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (18:13.24) Hmm. Terry Real (18:21.826) So you get somebody you love coming at you and going, buddy, I don't like what you're doing. You better do it this way, not that way. They're going to shame. Not guilt. Not remorse. Healthy self-esteem, which I have to teach men, women too, means I hold myself in warm regard even while I feel proportionally bad about bad behavior. Dr. Mindy (18:31.713) Yeah. Terry Real (18:50.062) both at the same time. And if I'm entitled, if I'm irresponsible, if I'm defensive, I don't feel bad about bad behavior, you deserve it, or it's not that bad, or the sort of thing that you hear from husbands all over when women confront them. On the other hand, if I do that in the bad behavior and I don't have... Dr. Mindy (18:50.498) Hmm. Hmm. Wow. Dr. Mindy (19:01.176) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (19:06.102) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Terry Real (19:13.36) some healthy self-esteem on board, I go all the way in that I'm a bad person. I'm a worthless person. I just did a whole talk on how healthy self-esteem in men is a prerequisite for accountability. If my self-esteem is based on my performance, you tell me, hey, Terry, don't scratch me here, scratch me here. What's the matter? You didn't like it over there? Boom, I'm a worthless piece of shit. And I don't want to feel that, so how do I protect Dr. Mindy (19:18.445) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (19:37.409) Mm. Yeah. Yep. Terry Real (19:43.314) Well, argue with you about your criticism, that's how. Dr. Mindy (19:47.163) yeah, I've been the recipient of that conversation. Yeah. Terry Real (19:50.467) Of course, mean, which is part of traditional masculinity. Being accountable is moving beyond patriarchy. Being accountable is moving beyond patriarchy. Look at the male leaders who are surging all over the globe. You see them as souls of accountability. Accountability is weak. Vulnerability is weak. mean, there's been across the globe a rise. Dr. Mindy (19:58.01) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (20:05.883) Right. Yep. Dr. Mindy (20:11.918) Yep. Terry Real (20:18.16) in some of the most vile aspects of traditional masculinity because men are feeling threatened by the rise of female power. women, know, in Jane Austen's day, you were either married or you were in your uncle's shack somewhere in the back You needed marriage, you needed men. Nowadays you don't. Dr. Mindy (20:38.2) Yep. Dr. Mindy (20:43.384) Yep. Terry Real (20:44.314) So, and women are proving that they don't by divorcing men in record numbers. Why do I want to stay with you? Because of the quality of our love, that's why, not your paycheck. Those days are gone. Okay, well, the quality of our love better be good. Women are raising the bar. Dr. Mindy (20:56.023) Right, right, yeah. Terry Real (21:04.148) And culturally, the response has been a backlash. Shut up, be traditional, get rid of all this woke nonsense, and just go back to the 50s and we'll be fine. Well, sorry, that genie is not going back. That toothpaste is out of the tube. So rather than standing women down from these new demands for intimacy, my work, Dr. Mindy (21:08.889) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (21:13.795) Yep. Dr. Mindy (21:19.555) Yeah. Terry Real (21:30.443) And I don't mean to whatever, but I do think it's a pretty unique contribution. I'm proud of my role as a public figure in this. I want men to stand up and meet these new demands. It's good for you. Dr. Mindy (21:35.35) It is. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (21:40.814) Yeah. Terry Real (21:46.137) Relationship and learning intimate skills is good for us. You will live. This is what I say to the guys in my office. Honestly, literally, you will live 10 years longer. If I had a pill and you took it every day and I said you could live 10 years longer, you would take the damn pill. If you're related and you're in a good relationship and your partner and your kids are close to you and proud of you, you will literally live 10 years longer. Dr. Mindy (22:04.599) Yep. Terry Real (22:15.25) partner will be happier with you. You'll have a better sex life. You'll have a better body. Your kids will be closer to you. You will be a better father than the one you had. Come on, man, let me teach you how to do it. And when you pitch it this way, not critically, this is what you're doing wrong, but positively, logically, this is what I can give you. Men aren't stupid, they shape up. But women have to know. Dr. Mindy (22:27.341) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (22:34.327) Mm. Mm. Dr. Mindy (22:42.297) Mm. Terry Real (22:45.936) how to ask, how to insist. And so let me now talk about women. Dr. Mindy (22:53.163) Yeah, I was going to say help women because I just want to, I always try to be, you know, call us out. And I can say that, you know, I've sat next to a lot of friends who have gone through the divorce process when they hit their forties and fifties. And if there's one thing I observed is that they had a bit of a nagging quality that's like, he's not doing this and he's not doing that. And I, and that, I, you know, I watched that and thought that's not going to get them anywhere. Terry Real (23:14.19) A bit. Dr. Mindy (23:21.611) So I think this is really important that what you're saying, we need to help women understand how to create an environment where a man can do what you're asking the man to do. Terry Real (23:22.009) It is it. Terry Real (23:32.443) That's right, that's right. See, under patriarchy, what do I mean by patriarchy? Well, there are three concentric rings of patriarchy, but let me just do the first one. The binary, the split, the having. You take the qualities of one whole human being, draw a line down the center, go all these qualities are feminine, all these qualities are masculine, and we all know the drill. We know what goes where. Dr. Mindy (23:49.945) Hmm. Terry Real (24:01.826) Okay, here's what happens. Because of feminism and the shift in the culture, because of oxytocin and estrogen drying up, women are less willing. You know, there's an old saying in couples therapy, post 4550, each of the two genders start to blend. They start to move toward the middle. And women start looking more like men and men start looking more like women. And it's just exactly what you're talking about. But you've got to be careful. Here's what happens. Under patriarchy, you can either be connected Dr. Mindy (24:28.801) Hmm. Hmm. Terry Real (24:44.848) Or you can be powerful, but you can't be both at the same time. This is the way out of this mess. Girls, ladies, listen to me. Under patriarchy, connected, accommodating and resentful, go along to get along, oxytocin, quote unquote feminine, powerful, logical. Dr. Mindy (24:47.865) Mmm. Terry Real (25:11.542) Assertive. I'm doing what the hell I want. Stand back, quote unquote masculine. But masculine is not connected. It's powerful. But power is power over, as Rianne Isler says, not power with. So when you step into power, you break connection. Now, what's happening? Dr. Mindy (25:12.813) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (25:32.963) And I've been calling myself a feminist family therapist for 40 years. All of my friends and colleagues are feminists, as to Perel, Carol Gilligan, the beautiful women of the Stone Center. Right, here's what happens. It's what I call individual empowerment. Remember I said our culture is patriarchal and individualistic. Very much including. Dr. Mindy (25:42.392) Amazing. Dr. Mindy (25:51.897) you Terry Real (25:57.005) Self-help, personal growth, therapy, 12-step. Personal growth is personal growth, not relational growth. And so what happens, as a couple of therapists, the bane of my existence is often individual therapists who empower their clients right out of marriages. I'm mad as hell and I'm not putting up with that. Yeah, easy for you to say. Here's the deal. Dr. Mindy (26:15.511) Mm. Mm. Terry Real (26:23.81) A lot of people in general, and women in particular, particularly when they hit postmenopause, move from this side of the binary to this side of the binary. And I call that individual empowerment. I was weak, now I'm strong, go screw yourself. And that's what you're hearing in your women who wind up divorced. Dr. Mindy (26:36.438) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (26:44.597) Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Terry Real (26:49.322) I'm empowered. I found my voice. You shut up, sit down and listen to me. I haven't been speaking for 20 years and I'm finally going to tell you. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (26:57.421) That's right. That's right. I've been doing everything for you. you know, Gottman's, the Gottman's, Julie Gottman, I spent a day with her and she told me something that I really see in almost every woman who's been married, that resentment builds when you say yes. over and over and over again to the things you really want to say no to. And when I hear the women in our community, when I hear my friends who are leaving divorces, there is this anger and resentment. And what I think is so interesting about what you just said is that the woman now moves to the place of power and now you have two people in individual power, but that is moving you away from connection. Terry Real (27:22.809) Of course. Terry Real (27:40.921) No relation. You're done. You're done. do that. You both have, both of you over there on that quote unquote masculine side of power without connection and you're divorcing. So, and you ready? Dr. Mindy (27:51.576) Yes. Terry Real (27:55.715) A woman, anybody, could be a man, but particularly a woman. Woman moves from disempowerment to individual empowerment. I'm not putting up with this anymore, God damn it. And therapists, friends, family, 12-step sponsors, cheer. Go ahead, sister. Get on that chair and scream at that son of a bitch. He deserves it. Well, you're going to get yourself. OK, here's the new news. Remember, I said. Dr. Mindy (28:12.418) Yes. Yep. Terry Real (28:24.622) Moving men, women, non-binary folks into intimacy means moving beyond patriarchy. Guess what? I was weak, now I'm strong. I am going to stand toe to toe with you. I'm going to tell you my truth. I'm going to tell you what I want from you because I love you. I love us. We're a team. Let's work together. What? Dr. Mindy (28:46.87) Mmm. Mmm. Dr. Mindy (28:51.546) Hmm. Terry Real (28:52.836) This is what I want. Now, remember I said, who sounds like this? Who sounds like this? This is what I want from you, honey. As a favor to me, will you work on that? you will? Great. Listen to this one, Mindy. What can I give you to help you do that? Who says that? I love you. You're a team. That's great that you're willing to try to do that for me. How can I support you? Dr. Mindy (29:09.92) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (29:13.71) This is really powerful. Yep. Dr. Mindy (29:21.881) Yeah. Terry Real (29:21.988) The relational golden rule is what can I give you to help you give me what I'm asking for? We're a team. Let's work together. And the energy is love, not power. I love you, honey. I know you love me. This is working, but this would work better. Let's roll up our sleeves and work on this together. Dr. Mindy (29:35.032) Yes. Terry Real (29:48.298) No one, I call this loving power. And no one knows how to do that. This goes beyond patriarchy. Dr. Mindy (29:52.195) Yes. Dr. Mindy (29:56.697) You know what that reminds me of is there's a lot of discussion in feminist circles about men not creating safe spaces for women. And yes, we have plenty of examples of where women have been mistreated and their safety, emotional and physical safety has been at jeopardy. But what you're saying, and I want the women, and I'm hoping couples will listen to this podcast together. The heterosexual ones, I think what we need to understand from the statement you just made is that safety is a two-way street. And so if you're wanting your husband to open up and be more vulnerable, when you make a statement like, can I help you in this process? Then what you're doing is you're creating a safe container in which a man can feel like he could become vulnerable. Is that correct? Terry Real (30:47.6) Yeah, and think about it for a minute. Is it really in your interests to demand that the man open up and be vulnerable and not provide a safe space for him to do it in? How well do you think that's going to work? Right, we don't. That's right, because we're individualistic. Dr. Mindy (30:58.074) I just think we don't think about it. Yeah, I don't think we think about it. Terry Real (31:06.448) And it's like, just sit down, shut up and do what I tell you, which is, guess what, honey? That's the way men have been talking for centuries. I know I'm going to get creeped in your comments section, but one of the things I say is after 50 years of therapy and feminism, women have earned the right to be as obnoxious as men have always been. It's like that is not a step up. But people are so... Dr. Mindy (31:14.744) It's really true. Dr. Mindy (31:20.726) It's all good. Dr. Mindy (31:30.17) Yeah. Mmm. Mmm. Terry Real (31:36.273) thrilled at the shift from disempowerment to empowerment, that they're not paying attention to the fact that it's not loving, it's not relational, it's not positive, and it won't work. Try this. I love you, honey. I know you love me. You're doing a great job. Lose the criticism. You're doing a great job. These are some of the things I appreciate about what you're doing. Now, here are some things that will work even better. Dr. Mindy (31:40.538) Mm. Dr. Mindy (31:45.146) Mm. Dr. Mindy (31:50.445) Yep. Dr. Mindy (31:58.523) Hmm. Terry Real (32:06.33) Would you be willing to try that for me? That's, can I give you a story? Dr. Mindy (32:06.574) Great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, please. Terry Real (32:13.68) True story, this is my sort of classic, but it's absolutely true. For those particularly heteronormative folks listening, see if you can relate to this. Her to him, you're a reckless driver. Him to her, you're overly nervous. How many of you can relate to this one? Yeah, okay. This fight had gone on for 20 years by the time they hit my office. Dr. Mindy (32:32.909) Yep. Yep. Terry Real (32:41.104) It wasn't the central issue, but it came up. Mindy, after one session with me, this is absolutely true story, ready? Her to him. recall everything I've been saying about the New World Order, loving power. Her to him. Honey, I know you love me. Let's hold the phone right there. What a difference in the energy. What a difference in the tone. Dr. Mindy (32:57.016) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (33:07.246) Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. It's well said. Yeah. Terry Real (33:09.358) Not righteous indignation. You drive like a maniac. You don't give a shit. I can't... No. That's the way she sounded. Honey, I know you love me. Look, maybe I'm a nervous Nellie. I don't know. She takes the whole, I call it an objectivity battle. Dr. Mindy (33:16.984) Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Terry Real (33:28.034) Objective reality has no place in marriages. It's two subjectivities. I don't care who's right or wrong. I say the relational answer to question who's right or wrong is who cares? We're a team. Maybe I am a nervous Nellie. See, she takes the whole battle right off the table. You're nervous. No, you're reckless. No, you're nervous. I don't care. Maybe I am. But you love me. Look. Dr. Mindy (33:31.118) Hmm. Hmm. Dr. Mindy (33:45.102) Yeah. Terry Real (33:51.793) When you drive really fast and tailgate people and move from lane to lane, none of which he denies, he just thinks he's safe, aggressive but safe, reckless and unsafe, instead of arguing about that, when you do those things, maybe, know, whatever, but I get really scared, honey. You love me? When you're driving by yourself, I mean, I worry about you, but it's your life. Drive how you want. But do you really want me sitting next to you every time we're in the car being terrified? Is that is that the way you want to show your love? Listen, even though you may think you're safe, I'm scared as a favor to me. Could you slow down and drive more conservatively? Him to her. True. Ready? Dr. Mindy (34:26.49) Hmm. Terry Real (34:44.56) Of course honey, and he did. yeah, like a knife through butter, because he does love her. Take objectivity off the table. It's not you're a reckless driver. No, I'm not. Yes, you are. No, forget it. a fave, be subjective. Dr. Mindy (34:47.586) Wow. I was gonna say, did that work? Terry Real (35:05.86) Be humble. As a favor to me, would you? Be relational. It's not about right or wrong. It's about our feelings. This is how I'm feeling. Would you help me with my feelings, please? Yeah, I'd be willing to do that. Nice guy. Thank you. Dr. Mindy (35:21.112) Yeah, I was gonna say that seems like a man who wants to stay in his marriage too. know, that could have gone. Terry Real (35:26.828) As opposed to what, and don't you think I deal all day long with men who would like to stay in their marriages if they had a shot at being able to do it? Dr. Mindy (35:34.532) Well- Dr. Mindy (35:38.822) So here's my question on that is all the, everything that we're coming out recently has been that marriage, long-term marriage actually benefits men more than women. right, so I think a really interesting part of this discussion is what's the benefit to both parties to stay in a long-term relationship? Terry Real (35:50.256) That's been true for 30 years. Terry Real (36:03.567) Okay. The worm in the apple is, the essence of what's wrong is what one of my heroes, the founder of family therapy, I'm a family therapist, Gregory Bason, anthropologist married to Margaret Mead, wonderful man. And Bason wrote about what he called humans, epistemological, philosophical mistake. Dr. Mindy (36:23.918) wow, I know Margaret's work, yeah. Terry Real (36:34.606) And the philosophical mistake is I stand apart from nature and I can dominate it. You know, in the King James Version anyway, God gives Adam dominion over all the things that bad idea. So here's what I say. The idea that you stand apart from nature and you can control it is a suicidal delusion. Whether the nature I'm trying to control is my wife, sit down, shut up, and do it, my kids, you will do as I say, my body. You know, you're a doc. My GP, my family doc, says he's gonna write a memoir of his life and he's gonna call it, How Have I Lost 10 Pounds in 40 Years? I've gotta control my body. Dr. Mindy (37:00.344) Mmm, it's beautiful. Dr. Mindy (37:09.751) Mmm. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (37:20.685) Hahaha, that was... Terry Real (37:23.122) I've gotta control my thinking. I'm a meditator. that's too negative. I gotta stop. Control, control, control. And by the way, for the women, the control is one down. Up, regulate. That's what all that accommodating is doing, is control. Don't set daddy off. Don't rock the boat. Don't stand up for yourself, but then resent the shit out of it. That's the traditional role of women. So. Dr. Mindy (37:27.899) Mm. Dr. Mindy (37:38.907) Mm. Dr. Mindy (37:44.429) Hmm. Yep. Dr. Mindy (37:49.657) So it's interesting, yeah, go ahead. Terry Real (37:51.547) Coming, okay, so when you come out of this individualism and patriarchy, you come into relationality. What does that mean? I call it ecological wisdom. This is what I teach the men, women, non-binary folk. Our relationships are our biospheres. We're not all. above them, we're not below them, we don't up-regulate them, we don't dominate them, we can't control them, wake up, we're in them. And so for both men and women, it's in my enlightened self-interest not to give in to you, not to bully you, but to take care of my biosphere. Why? I breathe it. Dr. Mindy (38:31.259) Mm. Terry Real (38:38.924) I can pollute my biosphere with a temperature from here, but my partner and I are an ecosystem. My partner's gonna withdraw over there, count on it. Look, a relational, ecological and relational synonym, from an ecological perspective, if one of you wins and the other one loses, you both lose. Why? Not idealism, the loser will make the winner pay for it. That's why. Dr. Mindy (38:39.451) That's beautiful. Dr. Mindy (38:46.427) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (38:58.828) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (39:03.524) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (39:04.854) that the unacknowledged bill that comes due when women over accommodate is resentment and that resentment leaks out sideways. Dr. Mindy (39:15.257) Yeah, yep. Terry Real (39:15.746) It poisons them, they get physically ill, it poisons the relationship. So, lean in, stand up to each other, but with these new skills of love and teamwork. It's not about pounding you into the ground, it's about, so you're using sex, sex, we need more sex here, which is a guy, usually, and honey, we both deserve a good sex life. Dr. Mindy (39:19.003) Yep. Dr. Mindy (39:35.131) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (39:42.959) What do we need to do to jumpstart this thing? It's talking like two competing individuals and remembering that you're a team for both men and women. I'm powerful now, sit down, shut up. No, I'm powerful now. This what I want, honey. Let's work together to get this done. Like the woman asking her husband to slow down. Dr. Mindy (39:51.919) Yeah, it was beautiful. Dr. Mindy (40:03.055) Right, it's beautiful. Terry Real (40:06.926) We're a team. We love each other. That's brand new. That goes beyond anything any of us have ever been taught. Dr. Mindy (40:15.725) Yeah, I really like that way of thinking of it like an ecosystem. think because that's how I think of the body. The human body is an ecosystem and especially the female body. Every environment the woman puts her body in, her body is going to adapt to whatever that environment is. So that's a beautiful way to look at it. I'm reflecting upon my parents are in their 80s and they've been married 60 years and recently. I had an interesting observation of my mom, because my dad went into spinal surgery. He was away from the home for close to three weeks. And she had to rely on her girlfriend. She started going out with her girlfriends more. She started doing things. And you could see her 86-year-old self come alive. Terry Real (41:00.612) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (41:00.675) And I told her, was like, hey, how come you don't do more things with your girlfriends? And she said, because I don't wanna leave your father at home and alone. And I think one of the things that we see as we age is for men, and if this is a myth, I'm happy for it to be wrong, but it's harder for men to find male friendships. and women can't breathe without their female friendships. So one of the challenges that we see is men are trying to hold on tighter to the marriage while women are trying to just get some freedom to go hang out with their friends. And I think this is a pretty common situation. Is there a way for men to, I mean, I don't know another way to say this, start to, I mean, as an adult, it's hard to find friends, but how do men start to find good meaningful relationships Terry Real (41:20.915) Dr. Mindy (41:50.779) so that the center of that isn't their wife. Terry Real (41:51.137) I mean, I, yeah. Yeah, no, I talk about that. And of course, you know, the literature on widows versus widowers is pathetic. I mean, women do fine when their men die and men fall apart. The supposedly the strong independent man just falls apart because it's the only. So, yes, no, I do talk to men about. Who do you talk to, Bill? Dr. Mindy (42:18.235) All Terry Real (42:18.385) And do you talk to anybody other than the folks at work? And, you know, how deep is the conversation? And I teach men to, okay, pick one guy. You've been going to the same six guys golfing every Sunday. Pick one guy that you think is the best shot and talk to him a little more than just about sports and politics. Tell him about your marriage. Dr. Mindy (42:41.817) Hmm. Hmm. Yep. Terry Real (42:44.945) Tell them that you're worried about one of your kids. Show some vulnerability and see what they do with it. Now, this guy, you show some vulnerability and he's like, whoop, let's go right back to the Red Sox. Fine, done with him. This guy, you show him a little vulnerability and lo and behold, he goes, wow, that sounds tough. Tell me what you've tried. You know, I'm struggling with, oh my God. And suddenly, you're having a deeper conversation with this guy than you've had in 40 years. Dr. Mindy (42:57.145) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (43:12.891) Hmm. Terry Real (43:14.899) So you have to pick people and give it a shot by leading with your own vulnerability and seeing what they do with it and then adjusting depending on what they do with it. there's an art. And one of the things I want to say particularly to the women, read my book, take my courses, do your best. If no matter how skilled you are, you are not getting through to your partner. Dr. Mindy (43:15.899) Mm. Dr. Mindy (43:23.514) Yep. Dr. Mindy (43:29.839) Yeah, please. Terry Real (43:42.556) drag them to me. We have the school of creatives called relational life therapy. We're very different than most couples therapists in that we take sides. And if a woman drags in a man and says, want him to be more intimate, guess what we do? We go, she's right, you're wrong. Let me grab you by the collar and teach you how to do this, which no other therapists do. Dr. Mindy (43:44.494) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (44:09.54) Wow, you're going to have a light out the door after this podcast. Terry Real (44:13.265) Great, go to my website terryreal.com, hit find a therapist. We have RLT trained therapists all over the world really. So yes, I recommend the RLT because they'll be your ally the way a lot of therapists won't. But if you can't, look, when do you need help? You need help when you can't do it yourself. My 77 year old wife has really bad arthritis. Dr. Mindy (44:27.908) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (44:41.871) So I tie her shoes. Why do I tie her shoes? Because she can't with her hands. When do need help? When you can't do it yourself. When do you need help as a couple? When you can't get through to your guy yourself. Then drag him to somebody else and ask them to help you get through to him. And an RLT therapist will help you do that. So all of the... Dr. Mindy (44:45.307) That's sweet. yeah, yeah. Dr. Mindy (44:53.468) Mm. Dr. Mindy (44:57.158) Yep. Dr. Mindy (45:04.38) do you say to the man that's listening to this? He's like, I don't want to go to that kind of therapy. Terry Real (45:11.885) is in your interest. It's in your enlightened self interest to take care of your biosphere. You know, I deal with tough guys. This is my beat. I get these big breath, why should I work so hard to please my wife? And I go, knock, knock, you live with her. Dr. Mindy (45:22.396) Mm. Dr. Mindy (45:33.46) Mm, right. Terry Real (45:34.542) It's in my interest to take care of the biosphere. And you know what? Here's a shorthand. If you ride in the one up, superior, entitled, disconnected, irresponsible, take a breath, open up and come down. Gild, open your heart, be vulnerable. If you ride in the one down, afraid, accommodating, upregulating, walking on eggshells and resenting the hell out of it. Dr. Mindy (45:52.14) Mm, mm, it's beautiful. Dr. Mindy (46:01.115) Mm. Terry Real (46:04.249) Take a breath, dare to rock the boat in these new loving skilled ways that I'm talking about. And take some risks and come up. If you're one up, your biosphere needs you to come down. If you're one down, your biosphere needs you to come up. Figure out where you are and then lean into it but with love and connection, not with scorched earth. I found my voice. Go screw yourself. Dr. Mindy (46:09.98) Mm. Hmm. Dr. Mindy (46:16.252) Beautiful. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (46:27.804) Mm. That's beautiful. What about libido? That's another mismatch that seems to happen as we age. And, you know, from a menopausal lens, of course, when there's, know, women's desire goes down, there's dryness, it can be uncomfortable. And some, you know, some women have been in these long term marriages where maybe there needs to be new tricks put in place. But it does seem as if there's a libido mismatch that can happen in the 50s and 60s for couples. How do you navigate that? Terry Real (47:04.411) You know, a friend of mine was a doc, a woman's doc, when Viagra first hit. I'm old enough to remember that. We were on the beach in Montesquieu. All of our female patients were, what did they give my husband? He left me alone and now he's chasing me around the room. Stop it, whatever you're giving him, stop it. You know. Dr. Mindy (47:11.214) Mmm. Eesh. Dr. Mindy (47:24.805) Yes. Terry Real (47:29.913) The essence of work, you know this better than me, the essence of sex therapy with low libido partners of either sex, but it's often women, along with whatever the physiological issues are, is reclaiming your own sexuality. Traditionally under patriarchy, women are over accommodating and resentful. That very much includes the bedroom. You talk about Dr. Mindy (47:50.427) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (47:56.069) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (47:59.538) saying yes when you mean no. So many women service their guys because they don't want to deal with the pouting or the bed. It's easier just to bop them than put up with them. That is a terrible, that's a great recipe for having no sexual desire yourself. So 99 out of 100 sex therapists in these situations will begin by empowering the woman. Dr. Mindy (48:01.679) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (48:09.433) Yep. Dr. Mindy (48:19.043) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (48:29.329) and helping her rediscover her own eroticism. Do you masturbate? Do you have a vibrator? Do you have fantasies? You you've gone sexually dead because sex equals accommodating somebody. You're out of touch with your own sexual pleasure. Let's start there. So in these situations, I put the woman in charge of their sex life and I get her to start feeling juicy again. Dr. Mindy (48:33.014) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (48:47.669) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really true. Yep. Yeah. Have you seen the movie Hello, Leo Grand? you gotta see it. It's about this exact thing where a woman, her husband dies and she realizes that she hasn't been having the sex she's been wanting to have. So she hires like a call guy to have the sex she wants to have, but to hear her, I think every couple should listen to it because to hear her explain, Terry Real (49:01.967) No, what is it? this is the one. Go ahead. Dr. Mindy (49:24.078) what she wants to experiment with this guy, she can barely get it out of her mouth. And I think there is something to that, that we as women, we're not taught healthy sexual behavior and we're objectified. So we're taught by the patriarch, if you have big breasts or you're a certain size, then you're sexually attractive. And so you have a lot of women that are disconnected from their libido for sure. Terry Real (49:36.497) Well, we're not taught any. Terry Real (49:50.224) That's right, if you're not attractive you feel shame, if you are attractive you feel objectified, and in either case you're reactive to the male gaze, you're not asking yourself what do I want? Dr. Mindy (50:00.464) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (50:02.757) You know, there is some beauty in some of the sort of female rock stars and stuff. Starting with Madonna way back when, who started claiming their sexual prowess and strutting their stuff. Yeah, I want women to start strutting their stuff, but what you have to understand is asking for what you want sexually for a woman codes as selfish. Dr. Mindy (50:03.034) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (50:14.992) That's right. Yep. Terry Real (50:30.533) Because asking for what you want in any way as a woman codes a selfish. In the same way I have to talk men, I have to say it's in your interest to come down off of your invulnerability, off of your power, off of your walls and join the human race and open your heart. For women... Dr. Mindy (50:30.556) Mmm. Dr. Mindy (50:34.684) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (50:49.276) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (50:51.927) It's not selfish to stand up for yourself. It's taking good care of your biosphere. When you don't take care of yourself, your guy pays for it. There's no favor there. Dr. Mindy (50:57.468) Mm. Dr. Mindy (51:01.284) Yeah, yeah, it's so true. Terry Real (51:03.185) So I have to help women learn that, really, I get to say, I kind of like it this way, not that way. I really get to say that. But one of the things I say, Mindy, is people tend to do in the bedroom what they do in every other room. And yes, it's selfish for a woman to claim her sexual power and ask for what she wants. Dr. Mindy (51:12.176) Mm. Mm. Mm. Dr. Mindy (51:22.684) Hmm. Terry Real (51:28.497) It's selfish for a woman to claim any power and ask for what she wants. So why would sex be different? Dr. Mindy (51:35.378) That's right. that therein lies a big core belief of my book is that I think menopause is the moment women wake up and they're like, I can't do it this way anymore. And then the carnage of that are all of these divorces. And a question I love how you're weaving in the patriarch because I think we've really thought of the patriarch as men and it's not men, it's a power or a system that's over you, over all of us. Terry Real (52:05.313) All of us. It does at least as much damage to men as does to women. At least as much damage. Dr. Mindy (52:05.538) And yeah. Agreed, agreed. So if we want a culture that has more communicative, connectable men and women to stand up for what they believe in, then does there need to be a redefinition of what marriage is? Terry Real (52:26.923) Absolutely. And here's another thing that women have to get by. Ready? Why should I have to work so hard to teach this guy all this bullshit? I know it. You know, he should just know. Dr. Mindy (52:31.676) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (52:36.111) Yeah, that, I've heard that, yep. Terry Real (52:42.417) Yeah, maybe he should, but you want to tell me who you've got that does? You know, I've been listening to women for 40 years like girls, I believe you. I believe that men don't know how to be relational. Like, why don't you believe you? If you believe that men don't know how to be relational, why are you insisting they're relational but not giving them the information about how to do it? Dr. Mindy (52:47.727) Right. Dr. Mindy (52:51.919) Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (53:05.446) That's right. Terry Real (53:05.677) or helping them do it. Like, what do you think the odds are? they just gonna, okay, I'm gonna be relational now, sure. No, uh-uh. So there are three steps of getting what, this is what my course is about online, which I love people today. One, dare to rock the boat. Loving power. Loving power. Honey, you love me, I love you, we're doing fine. It's not a criticism. Dr. Mindy (53:11.708) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (53:16.477) Mmm, great. Dr. Mindy (53:22.845) Hmm. Terry Real (53:29.829) We could do better. These are the things that would help me feel better. One, two, three, four. Would you be willing to work on them for us, for me? I know you love me, and I'm willing to help. Two, once your partner says, okay, I'll try, don't criticize them. Dr. Mindy (53:36.189) Mm. Dr. Mindy (53:39.954) love that. Love that. Terry Real (53:50.942) People say to me, well, you're really tough on men. When do women's issues come up? I go the minute the guy starts giving her what she wants. That's when her issues come up I talked about transmission reception once he starts transmitting The women fall in there. thank you. No, yes, but well, yeah, you say you're gonna do it, but You don't really mean yeah, you're gonna do it, but you don't do it. Well, you're gonna do it, but you're doing it now what happened? Dr. Mindy (53:51.485) you Dr. Mindy (54:01.789) I'm Dr. Mindy (54:18.445) Hmm. Yeah. Terry Real (54:20.465) You know what? There's one thing to complain about not getting something. There's a whole other thing to open up and receive it. And so I teach women in particular to, I call it, celebrate the glass 14 % full. It was only 5 % full last week. But who does that? Yeah. Dr. Mindy (54:29.307) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (54:36.445) Hmm. Yeah, that's beautiful. And you know, have you ever heard that thing that like, whatever you said before, but gets negated once you say but? Yeah, so that's beautiful. Terry Real (54:48.643) yeah. yeah. Yeah. I had a southern gal, a client who said, my daddy said everything before. That's a nice dress, but the hem could be a little low. My daddy said everything that comes before butt is bullshit. So yeah, we say and not, but anyway, listen. So one, this is what I want from you. It's really, really important to me as a favor to me, to us. Would you work on it? Sure. Good. Two, let me break it down and teach you. Dr. Mindy (55:02.021) Yeah. Yeah. Terry Real (55:17.977) I don't expect you to read my mind. Just like sex, we know this for sex. This is too soft, this is too hard, this is too slow. Let me teach you. So for example, when I come to you with a problem, don't solve my problem. Just listen to me. Be like a girlfriend. Put your arm, go there, there, that side. Literally take the guy by the hand and show him what you want from him too. Dr. Mindy (55:21.24) Mm-hmm. Yep. Dr. Mindy (55:28.189) Mm. Dr. Mindy (55:32.573) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (55:44.423) beautiful. Terry Real (55:45.959) And women will go, well, I shouldn't have to work that hard. I know, life's unfair. Do you want it or not? I'm sorry. And then three, once your partner starts to try, reward them, don't discourage them. Nice try, honey. Keep going. That's how you do it. Go ahead. Dr. Mindy (55:50.407) Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (56:05.565) that if he did it at 5 % and he's now doing it at 14%, you're moving at that. It's so beautiful to think of it that way. I'll tell you something interesting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Terry Real (56:14.578) But Mindy, you know, that's what you would do with your kid. If it were a child and your child came with a D and you read him the Ryan Act and they showed up with a C, you wouldn't say, where's the A? You say, that's great improvement, but we don't treat our spouses like that. Dr. Mindy (56:26.407) That's right, it's well said. Yeah. So when I got married, the months leading up to my wedding, my mom's friends all gathered me around. And these were about five women that were in their 50s that were still married. And they literally sat me down and they said, let me tell you what's gonna happen. There's gonna be a moment where you're gonna wake up and you're gonna say, what the hell did I do? and on that day just know that's normal and it's gonna pass and you're gonna move through it. And I'll tell you, that was one of the most helpful things because my parents do have an incredible marriage that was always put on a pedestal. And we see incredible marriages in movies and Disney movies and all of that. And to know that the bumps would be there by these very wise women was a really helpful thing. Now fast forward to this moment, Terry Real (57:24.592) really helpful. Dr. Mindy (57:27.257) my 25 year old daughter is getting married next summer. And I keep thinking about how marriage has so many components to it that are outdated. And I keep thinking about what you know, things like what you're saying where men can, you know, if they show up more connected and women are better at expressing what their needs are that the marriage can be stronger. What would you say in this day and age to a 25 year old and her fiance is 28? about how to succeed at marriage. Terry Real (58:01.778) This is how I began us. And it comes from the infant observational researcher Ed Tronek. He and Barry Breslin were the first generation to stick a camera in front of mothers and infants and then fathers and actually look at what went on instead of Freud and figuring out from the 40 year old is remember, no, let's look at it. And what Tronek came up with which I then stole, not borrowed, All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair. Closeness, disillusionment, and a return to closeness. And harmony, disharmony, and repair can play out 20 times over one dinner conversation. It can play out over 40 years in a marriage. And when you're in the disillusionment, disharmony phase, it sucks. Dr. Mindy (58:43.517) beautiful. Dr. Mindy (58:52.573) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (58:59.99) And you're talking to the guy who coined the phrase normal marital hatred. When you're in disharmony, that moment, I can't believe I am so trapped with how did I get, I hate your guts. That's fine. Don't sweat it. But all of the skills. that I teach are all about moving from that moment back into repair. And there's skills that have to be done on both sides. And who doesn't? Very few people in our culture. So the disruption is normal. And how dark and upsetting that disruption is, is normal. Now take a breath and figure out how you're get back on the horse you just fell off of. Dr. Mindy (59:28.891) Yeah. Yep. Dr. Mindy (59:35.249) Beautiful. Dr. Mindy (59:46.365) Mm. Dr. Mindy (59:52.765) That's beautiful. Terry Real (59:53.553) That is the essence of a real relationship. In our culture, we worship harmony, harmony, harmony. It's just like, you know, a 17-year-old body. Just like sex, like the first two weeks that you're, no, harmony, disharmony. You know what I say, Mindy? I actually wrote this. You know how on the back of a couples therapy book, you always get the couple and they look like they just had the biggest orgasm of their life. I want a book where Belinda and I are like, ugh, I hate Dr. Mindy (01:00:01.107) yeah. Dr. Mindy (01:00:20.562) Mm. I'm sure you can create that. Terry Real (01:00:23.476) your gut. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you go to it is what I wrote. You go to a cocktail party and you hear, oh, 87 year old Mindy and her husband, Fred. They've been married for 70 years. They're more in love now than I think. Yeah. Once I like to hear this. There's 87 year old Mindy and her husband, Fred. They spent 20 years duking it out. Fred used to be a rager. Mindy drank too much. He finally got fed up and left her for a year, fell in love with another woman. Mindy said, I'm going to deal with my dot dot dot. Fred reluctantly came back. They went to couples therapy. They worked it out. Are they great? I mean, it depends on the day, but they're really pretty committed to each other. Aren't they adorable? Just once I'd like to hear a couple describe that way. Dr. Mindy (01:01:15.646) It would be a very real description for sure. How does a couple know when it's actually time to end and to split? Terry Real (01:01:26.802) Oh, well, good plug because I'm about to do a free online course, a three hour workshop. Oh, it's not free. I'm going to do a three hour workshop on should I stay or should I go? And so everybody should do that, but I'll do the headline because I have a tool. The tool is a question. Now, first of all, I believe in the serenity prayer. You do everything you can on your end. Dr. Mindy (01:01:39.506) Hmm. Terry Real (01:01:57.029) And that includes, I'm learning all these skills about how to approach my partner with loving power, ain't working. I dragged my partner to a therapist, ain't working. I fired that therapist and went to that therapist, still ain't working. This isn't this, I'm not gonna get it. What do I do? Here's the question, you ready? Dr. Mindy (01:02:16.978) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (01:02:19.504) I call this a relational reckoning. Am I getting enough in this relationship to make grieving what I'm not getting worth my while? Am I getting enough to make grieving what I'm not getting worth my while? Am I getting enough? Ask yourself, what am I gonna miss? Dr. Mindy (01:02:33.396) it's beautiful. Dr. Mindy (01:02:40.551) Yeah. Terry Real (01:02:45.714) if I kick this sucker out the door. And that includes money, logistics, help with the kids, all of it. What's my life gonna look like without them? Am I getting enough in all these ways? And what our culture doesn't prepare us for is grief. Dr. Mindy (01:03:04.907) yeah. Terry Real (01:03:05.01) You are an imperfect person married to an imperfect person. There are things they are not going to do for you. There are things that they are going to do that are going to drive you insane. OK, what do I do with that? Nothing. Feel it. Bear it. And no, if the answer is even though this drives me nuts about them, these five things are so wonderful. No, it's worth my while to say, then embrace what you're getting and don't walk around like a resentful victim. And if the answer is no, it's not worth it to you, you mean you're done, get out. Dr. Mindy (01:03:41.457) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (01:03:45.919) And you go, yeah. I love, I've heard Esther Perel say that you're gonna grieve something. You're gonna grieve a relationship that you once had or what it could have been, or you're gonna grieve the person you might have been outside of the relationship. So pick your grief. Which grief are you gonna go for? So, yeah. Terry Real (01:04:00.559) Yeah. Well, we're imperfect human beings, you know. The issue is we long for the divine. I mean, in our heart of hearts, we really want, and of course the advertising in Hollywood, we really want gods and goddesses who are gonna like utterly be there for us and complete us. But it's exactly your human imperfection and mine and how we manage that collision, that's the guts of what real intimacy is. Dr. Mindy (01:04:30.211) Yeah. Terry Real (01:04:30.887) That's the show. That's where you get to grow and go beyond your comfort zone and learn some things about yourself. If you were being endlessly gratified, I mean, I'd be bored to death, you're just not gonna grow. That's not what a real relationship is. That's an AI program. Dr. Mindy (01:04:34.066) Yeah, it's Dr. Mindy (01:04:41.704) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (01:04:47.742) Very true. Dr. Mindy (01:04:52.966) Yeah, yeah, it's really beautiful. What do you think that our culture can do to support men right now? I'm seeing a lot of conversation. I'm not just talking about men we might be married to, but I'm the mother of a son. And I took that responsibility really seriously when he was born. And I continue to 23, I continue to look for ways I can help him feel connected. I think one of my big takeaways from this conversation is how the culture has hurt men and women are screaming to bring men back into relationship and to help men change. But it gets exhausting sometimes and it needs all of us. So what can we do culturally to support men to be more vulnerable? Yeah, please. Terry Real (01:05:39.476) What I want, let me talk about the boys to start off with. Okay, I want you to understand that raising a relational boy is going against the culture. And I want you to understand what you're asking your son to do. So I talk about raising our sons in particular to be culturally literate. Dr. Mindy (01:05:55.356) Yeah. Yep. Dr. Mindy (01:06:09.406) Mmm. Terry Real (01:06:09.843) And in our culture, there's a choice. At any given moment, you can be really authentic, which means human, vulnerable, and express yourself, and you'll get shit for it. Or you can accommodate, duck under the radar, escape the grief you'll get, but sacrifice your own, you know. Dr. Mindy (01:06:20.409) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (01:06:27.024) Mm-hmm. Terry Real (01:06:37.595) The story I always tell is this one, if I may, is true. When my kids, they're in their 30s now, but when they little boys, we were in the Caribbean and they were doing corn rolls, you know, in their hair. And so my older son's a big jock. He had like maybe two little Keith Richards rock star corn rolls. Dr. Mindy (01:06:41.169) Mm-hmm, please. Dr. Mindy (01:06:48.321) yeah. Terry Real (01:07:00.059) I was in a... The other one, who grew up and became a ballet dancer, and now he's a doctor, but he danced for the LA Ballet for a year, he was like, yeah, let's do it, whole lot. And his favorite colors, which were gold and pink. So the night before they go back to school, they have this stuff in there. And, you know, it's quite a deal to get it out. And Belinda and I sit him down and go, OK, here's the deal. If you keep this stuff... Dr. Mindy (01:07:08.35) Amazing. Terry Real (01:07:29.361) Everybody could love you, think you're the head of the town, or some or all could give you a lot of grief for it. You have to decide. If you take them out of your hair, you're giving up the joy of walking in with this stuff. If you don't take them out of your hair, you're gonna have to withstand whatever people throw at you. What do you guys wanna do? It's not our decision, it's theirs. Dr. Mindy (01:07:39.902) Mm. Dr. Mindy (01:07:55.059) Beautiful. Terry Real (01:07:55.592) what you guys want to do about it. And the little one said, I'm going for it. But when it came time to put their foot in the car to go to school, the older one freaked out. He I can't do it, I can't do it. And we wound up having to cut it. And I think knowing the kids in his class, he would have gotten shit for it. The little one, who's always been a little charmed, was the toast to the town. Dr. Mindy (01:08:11.62) my gosh. Dr. Mindy (01:08:17.501) Yeah. Terry Real (01:08:23.877) I don't think my older one was stupid. And when we teach boys to be relational... Dr. Mindy (01:08:26.751) Hmm. Terry Real (01:08:30.683) We have to understand, just like when we're asking men to be more intimate, we're asking them to move beyond patriarchy. When we're asking boys to stay relational, it's within a context in which there's a lot of pressure for them to not do that. So I want you to have sensitivity to that. Case by case, it's not your decision, it's theirs. But I do want you to build what I call a relationship-cherishing subculture around your Dr. Mindy (01:08:46.259) Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Terry Real (01:09:00.627) family, friends. Go into school and either join or create a non-bullying committee because the way boys are enforced in the patriarchy is through bullying. The biggest enforcers of traditional masculinity are other boys on the playground. So do what you can to protect your son and show your son different ways of being a man than what they're going to get out. Dr. Mindy (01:09:01.791) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (01:09:08.543) It's beautiful. Dr. Mindy (01:09:12.703) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (01:09:17.862) Hmm, yeah. Dr. Mindy (01:09:25.055) Hmm. Beautiful. Yeah. Terry Real (01:09:28.633) in the media and take that job seriously and then don't assume that your boy is going to stop being relational because that's what happens to boys. Dr. Mindy (01:09:40.232) Yeah, you know, one thing I used to do with my son a lot, because he would want to avoid conflict and he had quite a temper, is that I found one thing that I could say to him, which was, when you look me in the eye, I know you're listening to me. So I don't care what you're saying, but just sit here and look me in the eye, because that's how I feel like. you're paying attention. And that one became really, I have a 23 year old, very relational son. And my new phrasing at 23 as he's in a relationship is I ask him questions, and this one's interesting. I'll ask him questions like, tell me how you're feeling about that. I try to get him to use his feeling words. And sometimes he'll say to me, mom, I don't like talking about my feelings. And I find that I'm sort of at a loss for what the next thing is. Terry Real (01:10:03.4) Good. Dr. Mindy (01:10:31.443) to say to him, but I try to show him by his relationship to me what I'm looking for. Do you think, how do we help young men, especially, know, I've got, he's 23, he's dating a woman that he's very serious with, and I just keep thinking how to support him in that relationship in the more connected way. Terry Real (01:10:55.539) Just tell them that being connected is a good thing even though I want you to be connected to your woman and don't be telling your male friends about it. Keep it between the two of you. I mean, you know, one step at a time. But, you know, I don't think this is for you to do. Dr. Mindy (01:11:06.399) But how will we change it if nobody, you know, it's like if it's all done in secrecy, how are we going to change the patriarch? Dr. Mindy (01:11:17.695) Okay. Terry Real (01:11:23.751) But when I'm sitting with men, I routinely... You don't have feelings, Bill? You got a piece of paper? I want you to write down these seven words in a column. Primary feelings, like primary colors. are a million use of feelings, but these are primary. Joy, pain, anger, fear, shame, guilt, love. As you listen. Dr. Mindy (01:11:29.918) Mm. Dr. Mindy (01:11:47.679) Hmm Terry Real (01:11:52.744) Joy, pain, anger, fear, shame, Got them, Yeah. Good. As you're sitting there now, what are you feeling? I could be faint, but tell me something. Invariably. Well, I don't want to screw this up. I guess that's, what would that be? Nervous? That's fear, Bill. Okay. Bill, where's that in your body? What's the sensation? Kind of my chest. What do you got? Butterflies? Dr. Mindy (01:12:15.583) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (01:12:22.143) Mm. Terry Real (01:12:22.291) If those butterflies could speak, what would they say? I hope I don't screw this up. Okay, great, what else are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling some, Mindy, by the time I'm done with this list, I've been noticed where every man comes up with three, four, five feelings by the time I'm done with them. And then I get to say the punch line. Here's the punch line. Bill. Dr. Mindy (01:12:29.311) It's beautiful. Dr. Mindy (01:12:45.588) beautiful. Terry Real (01:12:50.663) You're a passionate guy. You know what? Your feelings never left you. You left them. All you have to do is turn the satellite dish in, get some structure, and pay attention. And they've been burbling along all along. So here you go. Dr. Mindy (01:12:58.015) Eww. Dr. Mindy (01:13:07.775) Beautiful, wow. Yeah, amazing. Well, Terri, this has been an amazing conversation and I really, again, admire your work and I really hear the cries of my community. So I think this podcast is gonna do incredibly well and help people. So thank you for your wisdom. Tell us a little bit about your courses, because I know that there's a lot of couples that are looking for a lifeline. Terry Real (01:13:27.571) Nah, you're welcome. Terry Real (01:13:34.94) Yeah, so we have sort of three flagship programs. Go to terryreel.com. We have therapists that you can find all over the world. And how to get more of what you want to stand up with love in your relationship is the basic relationship skills course. How to fight fair. How to empower your partner to come through for you. How to get what you want. Dr. Mindy (01:13:55.155) Mm. Dr. Mindy (01:13:59.008) Amazing. Yeah. Terry Real (01:14:00.307) We have one course on self-esteem what it is and what it isn't because most people don't have it and one course on healthy boundaries Dr. Mindy (01:14:08.999) Hmm. Terry Real (01:14:09.139) how to assert healthy boundaries without clobbering your partner. these are the three, and then we have little specifics like how to come back from an affair, how to stop fighting, should I stay or should I go is gonna be the new one. So we have these little courses and then we have these bigger courses. Come to my website and investigate, read my book of course, but Dr. Mindy (01:14:21.757) Mm. Dr. Mindy (01:14:28.297) Beautiful. Terry Real (01:14:39.093) take a course or two and if the guy you're with won't take them, you take them and then seduce them. Hey Bill, I've been taking this course by Terry Real on relationship. I just realized I can be one up and boundaryless. He's got this grid. this is what I sound like, blah, blah, blah. What a pain in the ass that must be for you. Hey, you want to see where you are on the grid? It's kind of fun. Talk about your own work and what you've learned and do it with humility and honesty. And that's the best way to invite your guy to get, that's kind of interesting. OK, where do I fit on the grid? But you start first. Dr. Mindy (01:15:10.385) That's beautiful. Dr. Mindy (01:15:24.287) Amazing, amazing, amazing. Well, keep up the great work. I assume it's terryreel.com and we'll leave links in here. So yeah, thank you. Well, again, I mean, I've been listening to you. I listened to us on a drive from LA to San Francisco and it was a really good read, a good listen. And I was so intrigued, I then went and bought the book. Terry Real (01:15:32.989) Yeah. Terry Real (01:15:42.675) yeah. Terry Real (01:15:46.599) Thank you. Dr. Mindy (01:15:49.44) So just, yeah, I really thank you. The women thank you. I think the men thank you too. But I think what at the heart of this conversation and why I wanted to bring you on is that women aren't wanting to leave their marriage. They're wanting more connection. Terry Real (01:16:04.295) No. Yeah. As my beautiful DEI consultant, Duran Young, says, let's not have the oppression Olympics. know, patriarchy hurts everybody. We all want to connect. Before you get individually empowered, fed up and leave the son of a gun, drag him to somebody like me and see if he can be made into a better son of a gun. But you have to learn how to do that skillfully yourself. Dr. Mindy (01:16:16.968) Yes. Dr. Mindy (01:16:33.376) Amazing, amazing. Thank you so much, Terry. I really appreciate you. Thanks. Terry Real (01:16:38.045) Beautiful work. Thank you.